Is heresy only something that disagrees with dogma,
but could well be true?
'Some said, "Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit." They are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman? Mary is the virgin whom no power defiled. She is a great anathema to the Hebrews, who are the apostles and the apostolic men. This virgin whom no power defiled [...] the powers defile themselves. And the Lord would not have said "My Father who is in Heaven" (Mt 16:17), unless he had had another father, but he would have said simply "My father".' [emphasis supplied]
*** ... [T]he Gnostic teacher Cerinthus (as well as other Gnostics) taught: "Jesus was not born of the virgin, but rather he was the son of Joseph and Mary, just like all other men, but more powerful in righteousness, intelligence and wisdom. After the baptism Christ descended upon him from the authority which is above all in the form of a dove and thereafter proclaimed the unknown Father and accomplished wonders. But at the end Christ again departed from Jesus and (only) Jesus suffered, and rose again; Christ however remained impassable, since he has a spiritual being." (Gnosis, pg. 165)Christmas Story White-Child Tableau
The paternity of Jesus.
Nobody knew. Opinions flew.
Meet Pantera. The surname Pantera. Why not look into possibilities other than the Taught. Here is a Christmas tableau. What piece of this puzzle are missing? Was there somebody part of this tableau who remains unsung. Anyone?
Angels! Yes, but they are over there in the pew, so who else.
Who might Archeologists and Deconstruction Scholars and Historians suggest is missing., as interesting sources for all sorts of religious information, possibilities. What are other sides to religious roots.
B. Deconstruction Scholars; Historians
Deconstruction (look that up as well) in traditions is a process, with the goal of dross-reduction.
This means no disrespect for people's efforts historically to make sense of the unknowable, by filling in blanks on their own. Deconstruction scholars and historians that we have read have also shown a reverence for this taking time to explore roots, whatever is ultimately substantiated or not. Legend or truth-kernels.
Here are some of the deconstruction / history sources we have enjoyed.
The Jesus Dynasty, by James D. Tabor, Simon & Schuster 2006. Find a review at http://www.jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/07/26/an-unnamed-father-of-jesus/
- The Jesus Papers, by Michael Baigent, Harper Collins 2006.
Scroll down - at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread269243/pg1/ for pros and cons of any of this. See also the Gospel of James, the Protoevangelium with its great insistence on Mary's virginity, http://martinlutherstove.blogspot.com/#!/2008/12/james-christmas-prequel-infancy-gospel.html; and http://martinlutherstove.blogspot.com/#!/2008/12/transformative-use-of-translation.html
"Even Origen writes that his opponent, Celsus, in circa A.D. 178, said that he heard from a Jew that 'Miriam' had become pregnant by 'Pantheras,' a Roman soldier; was divorced by her husband, and bore Jesus in secret."
Roman culture and armies - throughout much of Europe. Here are Roman ruins from Augsburg, Germany showing everyday life in their time. A wagon, pulled by an ox.
Mary and Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. The Tiberius, referring to the River Tiber in Rome, does that mean Roman Citizen.
Can a faith thrive independent of dogma. Bingen Germany. Another trip. Names to keep in mind: scroll down - at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread269243/pg1/. None of this has been vetted here, but we are interested in the list and the ideas.
- Yeshu ben Pantera,
- Jesus of Pantera,
- Miriam ben Stada,
- Miriam Megaddela, or a dresser of hair
- Mary of Stada (of the husband, Stada or Joseph?so that her relationship with Pantera was adulterous?). Try a different spelling,
- Panthera as a corrupt version of the Greek word parthenos, that meant virgin. So virgin came to be attached to Miriam, not Panthera, or Jesus as Ben ha-Panthera to Jews who mocked the idea of son of a virgin, son of a Panther, leopard, Pantera
- Ben Pandira. See references to the Talmud, below. Then,
- Teacher of Righteousness (see Dead Sea Scrolls),
- Yeishu ha Notzri (Nazareth?), all these referenced in the discussion of anomalies in early writings, and Talmudic references - scroll down - at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread269243/pg1/. Was the Talmud in general use "heavily edited" by Christians in 1631?
- The Soncino Edition of the Babylonian Talmud. How did that happen, if it did. Need to find out. We see a note there that the "pristine" version is still available, and one is at Oxford University. And that much was retained in footnotes.
"It is noteworthy that Origin himself is credited with the tradition that Panther was the appellation of James (Jacob), the father of Jospeh, the father of Jesus... So, too, Andrew of Crete, John of Damascus, Epiphanius the Monk, and the author of Andronicus of Constantinople's Dialogue Against the Jews, name Panther as an ancestor of Jesus...
'Jesus being called by his grandfather's name would also have agreed with a statement in the Talmud permitting this practice. Whereas Christian tradition identified Jesus by his home town, Jewish tradition, having a greater concern for genealogical identification, seems to have preferred this method of identifying Jesus ....***' "
So, on we go. Interested in all that appears. Fair use quotes to direct us later on.